1. J U N E 2 0 11
p u b l i c s e c t o r p r a c t i c e
Nudging the world
toward smarter
public policy: An interview
with Richard Thaler

2. 2
Public and private data alike will
become more transparent, says behavioral
scientist Richard Thaler. That’s an
opportunity for some companies and a
threat for others.
Richard Thaler is the rare academic whose ideas are being
translated directly into action. Since last year, the University of Chicago
professor has been advising the “Nudge Unit,” established by the
government of the United Kingdom to create policies that will enhance
the public welfare by helping citizens make better choices. The group
gets its name from Nudge: Improving Decisions about Health, Wealth,
and Happiness (Yale University Press, April 2008), the book Thaler
coauthored with Harvard Law School professor Cass Sunstein, which
applies the ideas of behavioral economics to public policy. Policy
makers can nudge people to save more, invest better, consume more
intelligently, use less energy, and live healthier lives, Thaler and
Sunstein argue, through greater sensitivity to human tendencies such
as “anchoring” on an initial value, using “mental accounting” to
compartmentalize different categories of expenditures, and being
biased toward the status quo.
In this interview with University of Sydney professor Dan Lovallo and
McKinsey’s Allen Webb, Thaler describes some of the Nudge Unit’s
early efforts to boost both organ donation rates and the volume of data
that governments and businesses share with individuals. The more
transparent data environment envisioned by Thaler holds profound
implications for business leaders. “Strategies that are based on
obscuring the consumer’s choice,” argues Thaler, will not be “good
long-term strategies.”
The Quarterly: What’s your sense of how the Nudge Unit came about
in the first place?
Artwork by Sandra Dionisi
Richard Thaler: I got to know David Cameron and George Osborne1
right after Nudge came out. One of their young staffers had read it
and passed it on to them. Mr. Cameron liked it and put it on a required
summer reading list for the Tory MPs. Gratifyingly, this turned out
1 David Cameron and George Osborne have been, respectively, the prime minister and
chancellor of the exchequer of the United Kingdom since May 2010.

3. 3
not to be just a campaign gimmick. When they got in office they said,
“Let’s try to do something.”
People in Downing Street call it the Nudge Unit, but the official term
is the Behavioural Insight Team. A bunch of bright civil servants on the
team are going around trying to get agencies to think about how they
incorporate this tool kit into the things they do. It’s hard to know whether
this is early days of a new administration or people being polite to me.
But I’ve been very pleasantly surprised with the openness—almost the
eagerness—of people to talk to us. I’m sure that there are skeptics.
But they are keeping that skepticism to themselves, at least initially.
The Quarterly: What is the core message you try to deliver in
those meetings?
Richard Thaler: My number-one mantra from
Nudge is, “Make it easy.” When I say make it easy,
what I mean is, if you want to get somebody to do
something, make it easy. If you want to get people to
eat healthier foods, then put healthier foods in the
cafeteria, and make them easier to find, and make
them taste better. So in every meeting, I say, “Make
it easy.” It’s kind of obvious, but it’s also easy to miss.
The Quarterly: Which of your ideas seem to be
gaining the most ground?
Richard Thaler: Two things seem to have traction.
One is building on the idea of changing defaults,
which is an idea that had already caught on. A big
Richard Thaler is the Ralph and
pension reform that Adair Turner2 took on had
Dorothy Keller Distinguished
automatic enrollment built into it.
Service Professor of Behavioral
Science and Economics at the
University of Chicago Booth The Nudge Unit has an advisory committee, and
School of Business and is the in the very first meeting with the committee we said,
research associate and codirector “Let’s try to do something about organ donations.”
of the Behavioral Economics The idea I’ve been pushing on for that is something I
Project at the National Bureau of call “prompted choice” that we use in Illinois, where
Economic Research.
I live. When you get your driver’s license renewed,
they ask, “Would you like to be an organ donor?” In
Illinois, that doubled the number of people on the
organ donation list. So a decision has been made
2
Adair Turner, an alumnus of McKinsey, served in 2002 as chairman
of the UK Pensions Commission. Currently, he is chairman of the
Financial Services Authority and the Committee on Climate Change.

4. 4
to do this in the UK, starting with motor vehicle registration and
possibly moving to the National Health Service, which could
make more sense in the UK, since everybody’s enrolled in that and not
everybody has a car.
The Quarterly: So defaults, which have already had an impact
on pensions in the UK, are now coming to organ donation. What’s the
second big priority?
Richard Thaler: The second thing that is getting traction is about
data. There’s a big report the Nudge Unit has written, and the interesting
thing here is they have gotten a big bunch of companies to agree to sit
at the table and help design this.
One general principle is that lots of good things can happen if the govern-
ment just releases data it already has in machine-readable, download-
able format. A good example of this is in San Francisco, where the Bay
Area Rapid Transit system has for years had GPS locators in all their
buses and trains. There was some big control room someplace where you
could see all these things moving around. They took that data that
they already had and put it online in real time in a format that app
designers could tap into. Now there’s an iPhone app that knows where
you are and will tell you when the next bus is coming.
So that’s one part: government releasing data. The second part is getting
firms to release data. One goal there is to get complete price transpar-
ency. Another initiative is getting companies that are collecting data on
your usage to share that data with you. When it comes time to renew
my smartphone calling plan, I’d like to be able to get a file that I could
upload to some Web site that would tell the search engine the way I
use the phone and, so, what features I should be looking for. It might even
be able to tell me, if I’m about to switch to some new model, how much
more my data usage is likely to jump based on past experiences.
The Quarterly: What are the business implications of the data policies
that the Nudge Unit advocates?
Richard Thaler: I firmly believe there’s a kind of regulation that can
improve competitive outcomes that some firms should be afraid of but
others should welcome. It’s clear that some companies’ explicit strategy
is obfuscation. Rather than “make it easy,” their goal is to make it hard:
They make the pricing strategy obscure. They make it easy for the con-
sumer to screw up. And then they make a lot of money.

5. 5
“ here’s an opportunity for firms that want to
T
compete on the basis of fair dealing.”
Right now, it’s very easy to find what the best airfare is from Chicago to
San Francisco. It’s not so easy to find all the charges that might
come associated with that, especially if you have a big suitcase. And
there are plenty of stories of credit card companies that are making
all their money on late fees and increases in interest rates, and debit card
companies that will stick a big charge that puts you over the limit at
the head of the queue, so that the next six times you swipe your card for
a coffee, you get charged 25 bucks each time.
Now, in my dream world, through all these data release programs, we
make it easier for consumers to be smart shoppers, because the release
of the data spawns Web sites that offer shopping tools. It’s not that
we want consumers to spend any of their time poring through Excel
spreadsheets. We want them, with one click, to be able to go to a Web
site and be told, “Your credit card company is charging you hundreds
of dollars worth of fees, and if you switch to this other one that sends
you text messages when you are about to go over your limit, you could
cut your costs in half.”
Many firms view this with fear and trepidation, and some of them should.
But others should view this as an opportunity. There’s an opportunity
for firms that want to compete on the basis of fair dealing. If we really
succeeded with all these initiatives about transparency and making
it easier to shop, then we’re going to make it possible to compete on
a completely different level. Firms that honestly can say to themselves,
“We succeed by having the best products and treating our customers
fairly, and we’re getting screwed by the unscrupulous guys”—they
should welcome this initiative. The ones who are doing the opposite
should fight me tooth and nail.
The Quarterly: You described a more transparent environment
as your dream world. Can you point to places where it may become a
reality anytime soon?
Richard Thaler: The US Consumer Product Safety Commission has
created a national Web site where people can post complaints about
products, such as children’s cribs.3 This is an issue that’s near and dear
3 See www.saferproducts.gov.

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to my heart because two of my good friends had an 18-month-old
son die in a crib accident at day care—in a crib that had been recalled,
but there was no way to find out about that.
Now, there are companies that are fighting this because, they say, some
of the information that will be posted will be malicious. While of
course it is true that some people may post bad reviews of products—
and even the greatest products have some detractors—a good prod-
uct will manage to overcome some bad-mouthing in the social media.
If you’re really proud of your product, then you won’t mind a complete
airing of people’s opinions.
What firms have to understand is, this sort of transparency initiative—
and, in fact, more generally, the whole Nudge approach to government—
is a middle ground. The alternative is having the government admin-
ister a two-year test of every product you make. That is much worse
from a producer’s point of view.
We’re all going to make some mistakes, and nobody builds a crib that’s
intended to strangle toddlers. But sometimes they’ll build a crib
that human parents will set up wrong. A crib’s got to be designed in a
way that nobody can possibly set it up wrong. And if somebody fig-
ures out how to set it up wrong so that it’s dangerous to kids, the manu-
facturer should want to know.
The strategy of dealing with these things by settling lawsuits with the
unlucky consumers, subject to nondisclosure, is not one that’s good
for the world. Strategies that are based on obscuring the consumer’s
choice are not good long-term strategies. And I would encourage
firms that are making their money that way to think long term and think
about how they can survive in a world where everything is trans-
parent and obvious.
Dan Lovallo is a professor at the University of Sydney; a senior
research fellow at the Institute for Business Innovation at
the University of California, Berkeley; and an adviser to McKinsey.
Allen Webb is a member of McKinsey Publishing and is based
in McKinsey’s Seattle office.
Copyright © 2011 McKinsey Company. All rights reserved.
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